Recovery Nation

Tonight marks another big moment. My wife is going to start talking and explaining the separation she has gone through in order for her to weather this storm. It's not going to be easy, especially since part of me craves hearing bad things about myself so I can still hate myself, but I am taking one specific thought in with me to help with this. It always has to be okay to complain. My wife (and even me) must always have the right to complain about something we don't like. Where I go wrong is what I explained a few posts ago---I always hear complaints as criticism. Tonight I am going to do my very best to hear the complaints as complaints, not as a criticism about me. I think that will be the crack in the plaster which allows me to get a good start in really hearing my wife and having true empathy for her position and as a result, being her soft place. This is what I am shooting for.

Hi Me,
I'm going to jump in here with a few thoughts. First, read Scott Wetzler's book on Living with the Passive Aggessive Man which is on our book list. A few years ago, I bought one for me and gave one to my H, too, so we each have our own copy to refer to when we feel the need. It's full of practical advice for both partners. Before that, I found a checklist for passive aggressive behavior and gave it to him saying "read it if you want to." He told me later that when he began reading the checklist, he wanted to ball it up and throw it across the room and then he realized he was being passive aggressive in his thinking and behavior - he fit the list. Around the same time, I asked our couples counselor, in his presence, of my H was passive aggressive. She said, "big time." It really helped both of us to hear what she had to say - he began to acknowledge his behavior which had become more extreme with his acting out. Now he monitors himself and I do if I see the need. I choose my battles, though. I don't want to be his policeman.

This is a good insight. It's not unusual for us to become osbessive about monitoring our Hs, but it is unhealthy. What can you do to help yourself find balance in this area - I'm talking action plans here. Can you map this out for yourself.
And how has this worked for you? Has it made you feel better or worse? More informed? More frustrated? Sometimes, taking stock helps us to step back and see why we need to change our approach. Then the next step is coming up with action plans to help us ingrain new behavior patterns -
Yes. It is an excuse to validate your choices.
Another good insight. Build on it. We all have done things we would have never done before in the face of dealing with such an "unknown." We violate our own values until we develop the personal awareness it takes to stop doing what isn't true to who we are. We get stuck in being a victim which validates choices that are inconsistent with what we value. We sacrifice ourselves to the addiction - that robs of us being able to focus on ourselves and our healing.

Hope this helps, Me77.
Nellie

Hi all,

I may offer some thoughts on this thread later, but I just wanted to add a little levity here.



I found this ironically amusing.

Boundless

_________________
"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell."

"Be a lamp unto yourself."

- Buddha

It is funny - at the time I really didn't know much about anything that I was attempting to cope with, especially the mindset of a passive aggressive person. I had tried the year before when I first heard the term passive aggressive and actually arranged counseling for us - I lasted two weeks. He went on for a few more weeks and lied and blame-shifted the whole time - but the counselor saw through it. We went back to her after DDay. I talked with her alone first, and she filled me in on what she already knew. She had him down cold. What she lacked, however, was validation and support for me. Looking back, though, she had tremendous insight into his behavior and called him on all his B.S. - tough gal. I think it tipped us both over.

Thanks for reminding me to smile -
Nellie

P.S. My H saw the husband of our first counselor for over a year and was gently led into figuring out his dark side. Different approach from his wife. My H became aware of his Mother Transference issues, his mis-placed priorities and the Victim Triangle he was caught up in - big steps for him in coming to terms with his anger, his fear, his need for acceptance and figuring out what he had to do to counter old patterns. Ther best part is that he did this without any imput from me. He went to his counselor, I went to mine. We talked briefly about what we were learning/doing, but we each focused on ourselves only.

Coming back to this after a week away.

My wife decide to delay going back into the issues for a short while. She wanted me to have a bit more emotional stability after my counseling session. It may be tonight where she tries to go back in. I am certain my behavior was a factor in her delay, but that is to be expected---who enjoys doing this sort of thing?

Well, I am feeling strong, and I am feeling more capable than ever to support her in the things she needs to say, accepting her anger and pain, and be the soft place for her to land when she needs that comfort. It won't be easy, but I am going to do my best and I am confident I will do a considerably larger amount of good than I have in the past.

Thank you all for commenting, helping, and using this thread to help you work on secondary issues of your own. Seeing different perspectives and parallel discussions has helped me.

Coach sandalwood,

Thank you so much for starting this thread and for sharing yourself and your struggles with us. You have no idea the good you have done.

My husband sounds very much like you but would not see it so I told him to read your posts. After reading them twice and me not taking anymore shit from him and calling him out on his behavior he is actually taking a bit of responsibility for himself and how he acts and how he treats me. He has proof now that he has major issues and just can't deny them anymore, he had to face them because he had no choice he finally saw who he was and who he has been being for a very very long time.

Right now he is currently going to our mental health office to get an assessment and they can then refer him to people that can help him best according to his issues. We both think he has a personality disorder and obviously the p&m issues which we will find out if he is actually addicted or if it was because of something else like a personality disorder. After doing a lot of research myself they often go hand in hand sex addictions and personality disorders.

I have a bit of hope again and I want him to have hope too for himself and us.

Lost

Just saw this and I smiled when reading this paragraph. I hope it all went well. I can't imagine it was fun to listen like this and I appreciate how difficult it probably was.

Years ago, in a college course, the professor had this drawing she had written about change vs. doing staying the same. The path of change was a picture of huge boulders of self-doubt, fear, worry about the future etc. that were in the beginning path of any new change, but the boulders got smaller and smaller on the path of healthy change. So it is hard work at first, to climb through and over things that scare us but gets easier and smoother the more we proceed down the path. The other path, the easier one of staying the same, had no boulders in the beginning path, was basically the "slippery slope" - easy, but as that path continued, rocks appeared, then boulders and the path got more and more difficult to manage.

Just wrote that for myself mostly, as a reminder that as I stay the course, the path will smooth out, has gotten smoother, easier. There are still occasional boulders to overcome, but my path is no longer clogged with them.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Oh my goodness. I just burst out laughing! Thanks for that Nellie and CoachBoundless.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Well another bunch of bs from my husband. Aug 2 I wrote how he has admitted that he needs help and is going to find it and get it. Aug 13th he did a couple real things that day and then nothing since. I brought it up again yesterday and he says he thought he could do it on his own still. So he lied again to me twice in not even a month about this. God I feel like I am talking to a wall. This is the third time this month and there have been times before as well where he has admitted he needs help, a lot and that he cannot do it on his own, that he will seek help and work at this and put in the effort. Why the hell are we still in the same place then, he has been saying this shit to me for over 3 months now since I caught him in his p&m and he has been saying this as well for the last 2 years before I even knew what was going on and before that even. What is going on here? What is his problem? He sat in a mental health office saying he needed help and when he did not get it right that second so figures again that he can do it himself even though him trying that a million times before has never worked wtf? He has even said before more than once "I thought I could do it myself but I can't, I need help and I am going to get it and I have realized that I can't do this by myself, it dosen't work". So why does he keep doing that then? Why does he not do what he says he is going to do if he says he realizes he needs help and can't do it by himself. I do not understand this. He is telling me these things over and over not me making them up or telling him, he is telling me this and a lot of times not and nothing changes, I just keep getting the same story every few weeks. This is frustrating as hell and annoying and not acceptable.

He said last night he was going to make a plan. Ok great. So when I asked what he plan was he made most of it up right then in the moment, that is not a plan, that is spewing crap out of your mouth that you have no real intentions of doing. A plan is thinking about what you want and what you are going to do to get it, a plan is written, a plan is discussed, a plan is not something that just pops into your head when someone asks you and you need to say something.

I typed out my boundaries and stuck them to the bedroom wall and he obviously dosen't give a crap about any of them because he sure is not trying to live by them or honour them. He is still lying and deceiving me. How does this stop? Why won't he stop it? What is his problem?

I am being patient and I have been patient and yes I get angry when I am fed bs every couple of weeks and he does nothing that he says he is going to do.

This is driving me crazy!!!!!

Help!!!!

Lost

Lost, I am very short on time at the moment, but wanted to reply to your post.

First the why question will drive you insane if you let it. Figuring out why beyond he has an addiction in my opinion, is just beating your head against a wall. Why he does it? Who knows. It probably feels good to say those things and maybe even thinks he means it in the moment.

Second, so your boundaries aren't important to him. Are they important to you? How are you protecting them? I ask myself these same questions as I relate to your anger. I don't mean to sound judgmental or short with you, just short on time. Because frankly, it is infuriating to have someone promise the moon and stars and be very short on delivery. It can be crazy making and it totally stinks.

Third, patience is all good but protecting your boundaries seems like it would be even better. I say that because I don't think I have been patient for a very long time now and still working on the protecting myself gig.


It stops when you start defining your own world through you, not him. I don't know if that makes sense but reading your posts, it seems you are waiting for him to get it for it to get better for you and the sad fact is he may not stop, he may never get it. I totally get that as many of us do....I was quite devastated when he was at it again after several years and immediately hoped he would get it this time. He didn't....but anyway... Why he won't stop...he has an addiction and may not stop, may not want to stop, may want to protect his addiction. What is his problem - he has an addiction. I know, simple answers but still true.

My heart's out to you lostmybestfriend. I wish I could sit with you while you cried or told me how pissed off you were. We could smash pottery together or something....or my old time favorite beat the ever living daylights out of throw rugs. Okay, kidding. Hoping to get a wicked smile out of you is all. Take care lostmybestfriend.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

lostmybestfriend,
I was thinking about you this morning and had a ding. I still have to remind myself occasionally that what he says means very little. What he does is much more telling. My husband is a master of lots of words, lots of thoughts, paired with very little or no action. Anyway, just had to add that obvious - take his *actions* seriously, even if that is he is doing little to nothing. His actions tell you a lot about where he is at, what his intentions are etc. Leaning on what he says or very occasional "work" has little meaning here. I really know how insane that is and how hard it can be to live with - that he is so unreliable. But actions are what counts. I remind myself when I get into a downward spiral with my husband to ask myself "what is he DOING?" I mean, his words are just puffs of air for the most part. Just yesterday, I asked my husband if he stares at women when we are at the pool. I honestly have not noticed him gawking at women as if they were hunks of meat, but still, I was curious as we were at the pool. He went into some bizarre speech about what our world is coming to, wondering about these women's health and he never fantasizes about them but if he did, he is just a product of his upbringing, his society - which brought us back to - what is society coming to. Okay, really, seriously you think that makes any sense to anyone? Some woman walks by in a string bikini and you are wondering about her health and what society has come to? lol Who knows, he doesn't seem to gawk at women like I have seen men do, but that speech seemed like just some drivel he thought sounded good in the moment. Words, just words. I just looked at him and he then said that maybe it sounded like bullshit but it was his true feelings...uh, yup, sounded like total BS. Anyway, I am going on and on again.

Edited to add: thank you to CoachSandlewood for being gracious and allowing this side conversation on your thread. If I have further comments to lostmybestfriend, I will either send her a private message or move it to the partner's forum as I feel a bit like we are stretching the boundaries here and apologize.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Hi coach sandalwood,

Sorry for my previous rant, I should not have done that on your thread. My husband and you just sound so similar and even he thinks so. Is there anything that you think your wife could help you with? Is there anything she could do?

I just feel so helpless sitting here working on me. I am working on me and feel like I have come a long way. Yes I do still have terrible days and the thoughts of what my husband has done and how he chose to live a life without me in it still are in my mind always but I do have boundaries and my values back and am living by them again. Problem with this is that it makes things harder sometimes, when I am shut out I say something now and will not put up with it which seems to cause conflict as well.

Any advice from your side of things?

Thanks,

Lost

I apologize for note getting to this sooner.

My wife helped me because it was not a plead, it was a demand. There was no set of boundaries I had to respect. There was a simple, straightforward demand. I start moving towards a better 'me' or she was going to leave me. There was no discussion at the onset of my recovery. She stated a very clear choice. Either she and my family was worth having in my life or it was not, and she could not stay in the relationship if I did not begin to change immediately. I did not phase out my stashes of pornography. They were gone. Immediately. I did not get any time to think about it. The previous 14 years of our marriage was already on the books stating my position. I was to start my recovery or everything was going to end. I was required to begin writing a daily diary, reporting books which helped me to understand my addictions (Patrick Carnes is an amazing resource) and then expand to other, addiction related texts, books on implementing change, and books which deal with hidden anger.

I cannot speak to your situation. I am not advocating you place the sort of expectation my wife placed upon me. What I am saying is that whatever you decide, your husband needs to know that the decision has been made. Talk-time is over. My wife did not demand immediate perfection, but she did demand immediate change. I also handed over control of the tempo and temperature of all our addiction/recovery related discussions, which happen at least once a week to this day. She is the one who still determines whether I am maintaining a present consciousness in our discussions or whether I am drifting into my manic behaviors which are an attempt on my part to frustrate progress.

It's important to note, I identify with Sexual anorexia, self-loathing, and passive aggression; and my first book was Patrick Carnes' book on the subject. If you are wondering about the specific pathologies of your husband's issues, then I would explore the various states of what Carnes and other experts offer.

I hope this helps.

Hi coach sandalwood,

Thank you for your response. I thought I have been very straightforward with him as to what I want and need and it all falls on deaf ears.

I said no porn in the house as soon as I found out and then found it after I gave my demand. I said that I needed to be included in what is going on with him, he needs to talk to me and I have said this many many times, I will no longer be shut out of a marriage that I am supposed to be in, again falls on deaf ears. I have said that I will stay and support him as long as I see effort and dedication and him trying and again have to say the same things over and over. I sent him seperation and divorce info, I typed out my boundaries and values with consequences and stuck them to the bedroom wall, he reads my posts on here and on another forum and also with our online counselor, I have kicked him out twice (once for a couple days and the last time for 5 days). What is the problem? Maybe I am the problem? Maybe he now knows that he can say whatever he wants to get back in but then never has to follow through on anything he says? Anything that would show me progress or committment or that I even matter and am important is non existent and he still puts himself first and is so self absorbed it is insane. It's all talk and no action. Even what he writes in his recovery thread is just words because he sure does not live by why he says or even try to. They are just words, going through the motions so be can say he is doing something. He says he has not looked at porn or indulged in that behavior since I caught him may 7th but again those are his words and I have no proof, no change in behavior otherwise to suggest it has actually stopped. He is a big pity party and goes on about how I hate him, well for one he has never even asked me that and would I still be with him if I hated him? I'm sorry but this marriage needs to be rebuilt by both of us and trust needs to be earned as well as forgiveness and how can I do that if he just keeps lying to me. I realize that he is uncomfortable talking to me about anything unless it is pettyand something he would talk to anyone about but he has to try. Ya it is going to be uncomfortable to begin with for sure and I understand that and have told him that I understand that but that does not give him the right to continue to shut me out, ignore and reject me and flat out avoid me. There is no communication, no intimacy, no sex, no fun nothing just hurt and aloneness.

He rights on here and another forum and we have an online counselor but he does not hear anyone but himself and he makes up other peoples thoughts and feeling in his own head without even askin them, particularly me. He does not take anyone's advice or suggestions or feedback, he says he does but he dosent at all, he reads it but dosent absorb or implement or try any of it.

I really don't know what to do. Do I kick him out for a longer time? Has he not hit bottom yet? I keep telling him that he needs to fix himself and how he acts and that I will not stand for it anymore but in one ear and out the other with him. He will agree and then go right back to doing the same things, the same behavior. If he dosent want to or can't try or if he dosent want me or our marriage then why dosent he just say that? We had another crappy weekend that should have been great because of how he acts and how he chooses to be and I am tired of it. No apology from him, no words about it at all and I am not chasing him anymore, I won't do it. I just don't understand. He won't talk about anything good or bad and still rejects and excludes me from everything. He is still living in fantasyland and because nothing else has changed at all I find it hard to believe that he has even stopped acting out. There is no proof that he has, none.

Another thing that is bothering me is that he indulged when he was home alone and in a week he will have all of his alone time again but has nothing in place and has not changed at all to prevent falling into the trap again. He still lies and deceives so how would I ever know because his actions do not prove anything different. I am in the dark about everything in my own marriage and it is scary and hurts so much. I am at a loss here and do not know what to do, I am doing my part and I am the one that was treated like crap and am still being treated that way. Today he is trying to text me like nothing happened on the weekend and he slept on the couch last night by choice and never talked to me then either, he thinks if he ignores me and the problems then they will just go away and they won't and they are only getting worse.

Maybe I have to do like your wife and sit down and demand things and if he dosent do them then he has to leave and for a chunk of time not just a few days. We also have two kids so it is not ideal to do that and I don't even know what I would say to them as they do not know what is going on.

Everything he writes and says is just such a pity party for him, everyone is out to get him and he has no clue because he dosent even ask or talk to anyone, he makes shit up in his own head to justify how he acts and has admitted this but just keeps on doing it. He has no idea how I feel because he never asks me or talks to me and if I tell him he dosent listen anyhow. I honestly think he has no real intentions of changing or even wanting to and eventually the abstinence will wear off and we will be right back where we started and right back in the life we have already has for 18 years, p&m fantasyland, rejection, hurt, alone.

If you have any ideas please let me know.

I just want to scream!!!!

Lost

lostmybestfriend. I so relate to your post. Just want to say that while you or I could just have our partners move out, there are lots of other grades of consequences I am comfortable with before that. I am finally getting the hang of consequences and basing them more and more on my values rather than emotional reactions in the moment.

One I recently did last weekend around lying about masturbating to porn then expecting honesty "points" for saying yes when I asked if he was lying. What the...? Anyway, I pulled away emotionally and refused to be available for affection of any kind. That's his M.O. is to spill the beans about something, usually after I have asked, then want to move in with charm and lovey-dovey. Nope, not happening anymore because it is not how I want to be treated. Also, he kept telling me how he wants to change, is serious this time, is going to do something....blah blah blah. Sorry, sarcasm. So I thought about this for a bit, then told him if he is truly serious about doing something then I expected him to come up with an action plan by that evening. He started with: how about a week....oh brother!!!!, or how hard that is, then tried to pick a fight with me, moped, whined. I finally just literally ignored him. I mean for pete's sake.

Anyway, I had a bit of an epiphany during this last slip/relapse incident. I keep saying I am looking for actions and not words from him, But I keep talking myself in circles with him. So I decided I am going to limit my own words with him. I have to stop getting into these downward loops I get into with him. So I am trying to be clear, straightforward etc and cut the drama out, at least on my end. I was surprised to find how much more empowered I feel. So for me also, and maybe more importantly - more actions, less words. And no more convincing him of anything! <--- me saying that to myself, in case that isn't clear.

Hang in there lostmybestfriend.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.