Recovery Nation

I have been absent from here for a while. I ran into great difficulty with my vision and decided to take a u-turn back into my family of origin issues before continuing with the workshop. I grew up with parents who are both pathologically narcissistic, and although I always knew they weren't "all there", it has taken me this long to fully realize and start accepting what they are. I'm on a support forum focusing on dealing with pathological narcissists right now.

I'm back here because my PA partner has finally started disclosing more fully to me. This weekend, he told me about his history of sexual behavior all the way back to childhood. There are two things that have me wondering:

1. He has an early childhood unwanted sexual experience, that occurred during sexually oriented play with another child his age. Everything else was consensual but this one thing - the other child tried briefly to perform oral sex on him. He told me about it like it was confusing back then but now he knows "kids do these things". I asked him more about it the next day after my own hurt at the things he's done to me and our relationship had subsided a bit. He kind of tried to rationalize again, but it landed in him agreeing that it wasn't consensual. I left it at that. I don't know how common it is, but to me it seems like advanced for their young age (about five). The fact that it bothered him then, and came back some years later when he thought about it a lot and worried about it, suggests a negative impact even if it is in the normal range. What do you think?

2. What I thought was the end result of escalation over time in his porn addiction, seems to have been there almost from the start of him using the internet to get porn. He had listed all the different "types" of porn he used. The worst in my opinion is animal porn and I thought this was something he had gotten to after tiring of more "tame" stuff. But it seems he had extreme tastes really early and it didn't escalate much beyond that over the years. He describes escalation during one "sitting", where he would start off looking at something less extreme like just pictures of naked women, but quickly he would move on to more and more extreme stuff. BUT his taste was apparently inclusive of some specific extremes almost from the beginning. What does this say? Is it still part of addiction or is he just sexually extreme and would never be satisfied with only "vanilla"? He says no, but I have my doubts. We have no sexual relationship at this time, but since he has been making some positive changes since starting therapy, I have been slowly starting to hope that this relationship can be salvaged after all. If he is sexually extreme apart from addiction however, I doubt it will work.

I would really appreciate your thoughts!

Dear AnnaSophia,
1.) I also had consensual encounters with boys my age, I say consensual since there wasn't much deliberate about the encounters since neither of us had any idea what we were doing, no understanding of sexual matters. I do remember being somewhat uncomfortable about the experience since we both knew what we doing wasn't "normal" and since I remember it, there must be some negative impact that I'm still searching for the meaning of experience.

2.) I can't judge or predict whether your spouse has "extreme tastes" only he can know that about himself and disclose if he so chooses. However, in the Recovery Workshop, Coach Jon gives concise examples regarding those of us with addictive behaviors using porn. He explains that the emotional high produced from viewing porn becomes habituated by repeated viewing of images within the same genre. To gain the same or higher levels of emotional stimulation, more genres will be explored and the cycle continues, I think he refers to this process as escalation of the compulsive behavior. Just like in alcohol and drug abuse, the user needs ever more of the 'drug' to get the same high. This happened to me, I'm not drawn to acting out the scenes I;ve viewed on the internet, however I found things that were far from my experience or natural desires to be stimulating during my episodes of compulsive behavior, I was escalating my viewing time and viewing genres. I don't know how far your spouse is in the recovery lessons or if he's involved on them, if so he will come to the lessons on how compulsive behaviors operate and will most likely relate and understand how his behaviors have been progressing.
skrelon

_________________
"Honesty and transparency make you vulnerable. Be honest and transparent anyway." --Mother Teresa

Hi AnnaSophie,
Glad to see you back on the forum and to learn that you have returned to your family of origin to work on issues that may have interfered with your vision process - I recall your saying that it was hard to return to "before" when you really didn't know what "before" was. We all return to our visions to refine, add, and delete various elements as we evolve in our healing process. Nothing is set in stone - we grow and change and so do our visions, but it is a starting place for us. The roapmap we determine for ourselves will take a few detours as we evolve.

I suggest that you continue to work on your vision to help you determine if salvaging the relationship is what you want at this point. Later lessons will give you the tools you need as well. A healthy relationship will take two healthy people. It's great that he's taking the initiative to work on himself - good sign. However, this is a long journey for each of you. Your healing will take all your focus and energy. His will be the same - and he has to do it for himself because he wants to become healthy. Whether or not he is sexually extreme is hard to determine and may not be revealed for some time even with professional therapy. My best advice - work on your vision.

Hope this helps.
Nellie

Hi Anna,

I would suggest the same thing as Nellie--work on your vision--but I'll try to give you some answers to your other questions from a recovery standpoint.

1) I've never had such an experience, but there's no doubt that it would have probably warped his sexual boundaries, especially since it was at such a young age. The warping of sexual boundaries and a lack of understanding of what healthy sexual boundaries are is characteristic of this addiction, no matter what experiences the person has had, but usually the younger the experiences happened, and the more intense, the greater the damage to the boundaries.



Well, remember, there is no "normal range." The only thing that matters here is how this emotionally impacted him and impacted his own perception. The same event will have a different effect on everyone who experiences it. So one person could have something happen to them and be unaffected; another could be traumatized for life. All that matters is for the person to understand and come to terms with how it affected them. Obviously, if he has developed a sexual addiction, there'd be no doubt that such an early experience played a role in developing that addiction.

2)



The issue here is that you're filtering these behaviours through your own perceptions. Which is an entirely normal thing to do, so don't worry...but it doesn't give you an accurate depiction of how he relates to these behaviours.

For example, you said "The worst in my opinion is animal porn..." But this is about what's in his head, not your opinion of such behaviour. In recovery, all that matters is how the individual relates emotionally to the ritual. From societal, legal, and ethical standpoints, there are worse, more extreme behaviours...but from a objective, recovery-based standpoint, there isn't much difference between S&M, prostitutes, voyeurism, compulsive masturbation, etc.

So, for someone with very warped sexual boundaries...animal porn could be considered more "standard" while what people consider "regular" porn could be more exotic and intensely stimulating, so they could escalate to that. For another person, it could be the exact opposite. The nature of these rituals is so personal that no two people's rituals and chains can really be compared, other than considering the underlying role that these rituals play, in which you see common themes that tend to pop up. But the only thing that matters is how the person's learned to perceive these behaviours.

So here, it is vitally important that you look beyond what is considered socially extreme, and try to see the role that these behaviours play in his life. The behaviours themselves, from a recovery point of view, mean very little. They may be hugely meaningful in terms of your relationship (for example, there could be a huge difference between someone having affairs and someone viewing porn)...but from strictly understanding these rituals and their emotional impact on the person, there is little difference. For one person, prostitutes could play the exact same role, and offer the exact same amount of emotional stimulation, as porn for another person...which is also why the severity of someone's addiction can't be judged by the behaviours. All that matters is how these patterns developed in the person's life, the extensiveness of those patterns, and for the person to understand these patterns and the role they've played.

The escalation during a single "sitting" is pretty standard habituation and occurs for pretty much everyone.



The issue here--which is why we say to go back to your vision--is that you are asking questions that no one can answer. It makes sense to want to know the answer to these questions...but such answers aren't available at the moment. Why is he into animal porn? Well, he is the way he is for a reason. Nobody is born that way. But I can't tell you. And even though your partner sounds like he's improving in the honesty department, if he's still in early recovery, the answer is probably just as baffling to him. He probably has little to no real understanding of why he does what he does, or any real understanding about his sexuality. So he won't be able to provide you with any useful answers for a while....long after you'll need them to make healthy decisions for yourself.

Similarly, I would imagine there's more important things you would need to know about him than whether he's sexually extreme...like whether he's willing to be honest and define a life for himself. In terms of the disruptions this addiction causes to a person's ability to have meaningful relationships, sexuality is only one part (albeit an major part). Emotionally, you are dealing with someone who is basically a child. If you could know that he was actually sexually "normal"...yet had no desire to go through a healthy recovery and will never become an adult...which would be a more likely cause of being unable to carry on the relationship? I suppose that depends on your own values...but my point here is, there's more substantial parts of his life that he has to work on developing first, before turning his attention to his sexuality. Like the very foundation of his identity.

There is habituation that takes place as a person's addiction escalates. So a person does escalates to what they perceive as more intense and stimulating behaviours. And it can take a long time for the person to untangle the healthy elements of their sexuality from the unhealthy elements. It will all depend on what he decides is healthy for his life, and your shared life (if you continue to share it).

So this is why we suggest to define your own healthy life, separate from his addiction and sexuality. And in the end, my guess is that your decision to stay with him will likely hinge more on whether he actually chooses to get healthy, rather than the range of his sexual preferences, since the former is more holistic and covers more areas of his life. If he goes through a healthy recovery, he will define a healthy sexuality for himself and you'll then be able to determine what he's "into" and if that jives with you. But that will probably be later in the process when he starts to figure that out. You can't wait that long to focus on your own life. And you shouldn't.

Hope that helps.

Boundless

_________________
"It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell."

"Be a lamp unto yourself."

- Buddha

I'll interject here, that in addition to the habituation that the SA experiences and the need for heightened excitement/stimulation, the internet is insidiously designed to take the viewer more deeply into extreme porn that we find shocking. With each click, new links pop up constantly refining the viewers choices, and it happens very quickly. When I asked my H what he considered the worst porn he watched, he told me it was two men "fisting." Not a pretty image for my imagination to process. At the time he was acting out, he wasn't aware of the stupor he was in and was oblivious to where he was going with his choices until he was shocked into some sort of an awareness and would quit for the time being. Yet, he would find himself back there again, another day or night - he was never shocked into facing this until he was discovered. His choices became normalized in his mind. To this day, he has no clear picture of when or how often or how long each internet porn session lasted. It's a blur to him.

I also asked him what was his favorites were, and he said it was sites featuring young lesbian women. Even though he knew they were air-brushed actresses playing a part, it didn't matter because it worked for him. The range that's available and the choices he made somehow fit his needs, but I found that it didn't do me any good to worry about what he watched or why. He had a cruel and hurtful addiction that he had to face. He had to do the work to arrive at a healthy lifestyle to bypass old ingrained brain connections and in the process, ingrain new healthy ones. Sounds simple, but takes a lot of hard work with lifetime awarenss a kind of maintenance, perhaps. I don't know - that's a topic for another day.

Nellie

A great big thank you to all of you! I am slowly working on that vision, it's coming along as I'm working through my childhood and youth, and what growing up with pathological parents meant for me. I always knew they weren't "right", but I have to say that the narcissistic personality disorder "label" and especially talking with people who have had the same types of parents or partners is bringing me to a whole new level of understanding and compassion for myself. It's also been helpful because, like many with my type of history, I am somewhat of a sitting duck for narcissists. And addicts, beacuse I think a relationship with one creates a similar dynamic as a relationship with a pathological narcissist.

This spring I went through a really stressful time as both my boss and my supervisor at university (I'm in the final stages of getting a second degree) treated me horribly and put me at risk of losing important things professionally and financially. If you can believe it, they're both narcissists too. I almost couldn't believe it and questioned my sanity for a bit, but thankfully my field of work is a pretty "small world" where I live and I've been thoroughly validated by others who know one or both of them. I am now free of them both, new job and new supervisor, so this coming fall I look forward to being able to focus on my own healing more consistently instead of having to deal with "putting out fires".

His early sexual experience, I feel pretty sure it had a role in warping his sexual boundaries because of his reaction to it. He made himself see it as normal and denied his own feelings. I can see a parallell in how he reacts to extreme sexual behaviors in some of his friends. It's like he turns all matter of fact and won't allow feelings into it, like a politically correct robot. Where I live and in my generational context, it's more politically correct to be very open minded about sexual behavior.

I've been thinking about his extreme tastes or whatever you would call it. It's true that I'm filtering through my own value system. The reason I think the animal porn is the worst, is that it's really abusive. An animal cannot give consent and will not protest if they've been trained. There are other extreme things he's watched consistently that other people might find more disgusting.

I completely agree with function of the behavior being much more important than the form it takes in the context of recovery. Everything that functions addictively must go, imo - even behaviors considered completely normal in our context like masturbation or looking at normal editorial matter (i.e., women in bathing suits - hard to avoid as they're plastered all over town in summer!). So that is a given for me. I also expect him to grow up emotionally and get honest, which I am starting to see signs of. He's in therapy in a specialist sex addiction/hypersexuality clinic.

Him disclosing was tough for me, and I was especially taken aback by the fact that it didn't take any time at all to escalate to extreme porn - almost like there was no escalation over time at all (just in every sitting). And he hasn't changed his tastes, hasn't become more extreme for the past eight years. It's like getting high speed internet gave access to more stuff suddenly and then he's been using the same stuff ever since. With my ex (same problem), he started out with mainstream porn and over months/years escalated into more extreme things. And accounts I've read of other porn addicts seem to follow that route too, over months/years they find themselves into things they would never have wanted to see earlier in the addictive process. My partner looks like an anomaly to me.

Perhaps I just don't have the full picture yet, perhaps (probably) he doesn't even understand his process yet. I was hoping for a sense of closure after he finally disclosed to me and I didn't get it. Maybe because I don't get his process, it doesn't look like the other ones I know. And that worries me, because I am apparently very gullible. I don't trust him yet and I think my worry about his sexual tastes represents that. "What's he not telling me?". He might still be lying and sweeping things under the rug. I hope he just doesn't understand himself yet and that's why he can't explain his tastes.

It also worries me because what if this extreme sexuality is more "set" in him than for example my ex, who experienced something like an identity crisis when he woke up and realized what he had looked at. My partner could still create a healthy sexuality even if this is the case but wouldn't it be so much harder than having something more "normal" to go back to. What if it's just too difficult to change, and he'll always be drawn to it. I totally get what you're saying, and honesty and emotional maturity IS more important to me, too. I wouldn't stay with him if he wasn't on that path. It still worries me that his sexual tastes might never be in the "normal range" because they are just too "set".

Another part of why I think I worry is that I am dealing with grief over not being able to try to have a second child. I am 37 and have endometriosis. I'm so thankful for my child, at the same time it hurts not being able to give her a sibling. And I would have loved to have another child as well. I think seeing my partner changing in the maturity and honesty department got my hopes up that we could resume our relationship, which would mean trying for another child.