Recovery Nation

Not sure how to even word this as I am so unsure of myself in this regard. I trust my intuition a great deal but still question myself when it comes to my apprehension and anxieties surrounding my sexual relationship with my husband. When you have lived so long with an addict and were not aware of it, everything in the sex department seems confusing. There are certain times of day that I can manage having sex and enjoy myself more than I have in years, but I cannot seem to manage early morning or late at night. It has to mean something, it cannot just be to 'do it', at all, anymore. Is that normal? I struggle with expressing myself in a very personal way here, but this is killing me, so I will risk it. My husband struggles with erectile dysfunction and I can understand why this is frustrating to him, so at times when he wakes with an erection he wakes me and tells me as though I should be excited and automatically want to have sex. There are red flags here for me and I don't know if I'm crazy or not. In most ways my husband is doing really well and is well on his way to becoming a healthy man, but I do not feel like I can trust his judgement in this department. I'm sorry if this is too graphic but I don't know who else to turn to this morning. This happened this morning about 4 o'clock and then I couldn't go back to sleep. I feel tired and confused. He feels that this is normal but also respects my responses, and I think it maybe would be normal in a monogamouse relationship, but in light of his years of unfaithfulness, I am not sure what it is.

I realize this is a bit facetious and I don't want to be condescending in any way, but my first thought is that it feels like a cat that brings the mouse and drops it on the doorstep so you will praise him, or that it is some type of serious medical condition that needs to be tended to. Is that being cynical?

I am feeling very transparent and unsure even posting this. Any thoughts on overcoming my sexual struggles with my husband are most welcome. Sometimes I fear that I will never know who I really am sexually. I fear that the years of gaslighting and feeling like I was a prude. Thanks to all of you for being here.

Hollyhock

My heart goes out to you Hollyhock.

Our sex relationship has gone from the extreme of absolutely no sex to his sex drive on hyper speed. Right now we are in the no sex period, which I am pretty sure relates to me sharing with him what I like and don't like and making that about his performance. My husband has also woken me up having intercourse with me and I have found it quite disturbing. He doesn't do this anymore as the last time he did it I about took his head off telling him how disrespectful and invasive it was. He thinks it's really sexy...I mean how is it sexy to just start having sex with someone who is sleeping??? What the...?

I get your analogy of the cat with a dead mouse. My husband has done similar things, as if the world sort of revolves around his erect penis. I enjoy sex but find it odd to have it be mostly about body parts instead of a whole person experience.

My husband, from the time we have been together, has said some odd things to me in the sex department. One being that he regularly would tell me that he didn't want me to do this or that. Maybe one specific is appropriate to make it clear what this seemed to be about. He would tell me he didn't want me to be in certain body position or pursue sex. He would say this to me as if He and his penis were the central characters during sex....as if I was just a supporting role in HIS play, not on a joint adventure. (One of the many marriage counselors continually told him that marriage was like a play where we both were on stage, not just him on stage.) He also would tell me things like "all men do this or that" or "men don't like that". I finally had to make it clear to him that I had been sexual with other men and he was incorrect in his assumptions about "all men". I still find it so odd that as a divorced woman I had to make that particular statement to him, but he seemed oblivious to the fact that in fact, *I* probably knew better than he what different men can be like in bed. He had been with other women, but seemed to act as if I was completely dense about men and sex.

Anyway, nothing really helpful as far as what is normal sexuality, just relating to your experience. I would think really, like everything, normal sexuality is what you make of it. What is "normal" is probably different for each of us, given our sexual orientation, our sexual preferences, our history, our values and beliefs...etc. And also, probably what is "normal" is going to be different post affairs, post ddays and recovery than it would be had it developed within a relationship free of those things.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Hello,

I am at a loss too. I don't know what to do or where I stand or if I even want to do anything or if my husband is lying to me when he says he wants to have sex with me. Last night he wanted to and just his le touching me made my skin crawl. He says for 18 years he has only wanted me as a roommate up until the beginning of this week, maybe I only want him as a roommate now, who knows. All I know is that this really sucks and that I am so confused, frusterated and hurt beyond belief. I am the type of person that needs to understand and I will never ever understand this because what my husband says just makes no sense to me. Some does for sure but there are a few things that I think he is totally lying about, he swears he's not but I just cannot see how his answers could be true and they just do not make sense.

I always want sex always and now I don't really want it and that confuses the hell out of me. It's like I don't even know who I am. I have no idea what my husband really wants and likes and when he says he wants to be with I just can't believe it because he said he didn't want to be for the last 18 years, well I am only 38 and we have only been together for 20 years total. He says he always thought he missed out and always wanted to be with someone else sexually and wanted to do things with other people sexually and not me after a few years, he says he wanted to keep me as a roommate though which is why he never told me, he thought I would leave. I would have for sure if I knew this shit was going on. Now I am in a trickier situation, married to him with a 14 and 9 year old, before the choice would have been so much easier because it would have only affected me. Now I have no idea where I fit in in my own house and I do not believe that someone can fall in love with you after 18 years in just a day and want to sleep with them and be with them all of a sudden, wtf?

Lost

Hi Hollybhock,

I am sorry you are feeling this way ; it is understandable that you would feel at a loss, not knowing what is sexually "normal" "acceptable" or even pleasant - I can totally relate to it. My own sexual identity was shattered as a result of my partner's addiction, and not only do I not know what is "normal" anymore, but I have also forgotten what I liked sexually, or loved... I have lost touch with my natural sexual being...

Your husband seems to be open to your feelings around this issue, I believe that this is a good sign (of sincerity in recovery). But his development hasn't yet reached all areas - and the sexual one is a tough one, for sure. I believe you should trust yourself, your needs and your feelings ; and share them with him.

In my opinion, a sexual encounter should originate from the meeting of two wills, two desires. It should not be reduced to "taking advantage of the opportunity" presented by our partners because they feel like it on that day (I'm talking about my own partner) / or have an erection. I myself used to reason that way, because I felt so deprived of sex that I felt I had to make the most of it when he wanted me... But I was enabling him - to use me as a sex object.

I have found that the abstinence rule suggested by Coach Sue (abstain from all sex for a month) is extremely helpful in rebuilding my sexuality. I have struggled a lot with my sexuality, to the extent that I had started feeling aroused by the same sort of things my partner was.

But now, I haven’t had any kind of sex for an entire month (I hadn’t done that for 10 years !), and it is extremely effective in seriously rewiring my brain, back to the way it operated 10 years ago, before I met my SA partner. I broke my abstinence rule after a month and even though this wasn’t very serious (because it was risky), I actually marvelled at the extent to which that month of abstinence had repaired my sexual identity. So I will try another month and perhaps yet another month, because I really want to reclaim my sexual integrity.

What does this abstinence rule do for me :
- give me control over my sexuality and over my body
- help me detach from my partner’s acting out (since I don’t want the same kind of sex as he does)
- help me focus on things other than sex (I had started to have a very sexualized mind of my own, and now I wouldn’t say I’m back to normal, but I’m on my way there)
- helps me determine quietly, with all the time I need, the kind of sex I want in my life
- in a nutshell, it is giving me my sexuality back

You write :

I think that’s an important realization. It’s absolutely ok to want sex to mean something and not just “to do it”.
If you haven’t read the thread on sexual integrity initiated by Coach Mel, don’t hesitate to go and have a look.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20152

It is full of gems. At one point, Coach Mel writes that there really is no “normal” as far as sex was concerned ; no normal frequency for instance – I subscribe to this opinion. This made me realize that sex wasn’t really a “need” of mine. And so, when I stop being abstinent, I’ll want sex to mean something as well (it doesn't need to be love, it can be fun, pleasure, complicity, etc.) ; and that period of abstinence will have helped me understand exactly what I want in this area of my life.

Lostmybestfriend,

Our partners in recovery can have a hard time separating what’s healthy in sex and what’s not. I know my partner doesn’t understand that he is still acting out with me (using me as a sex object). He is sincere when he says that he wants sex with me, but I know that it’s only another form of acting out. I don’t think I’ll be ready to have sex with my partner until he himself has abstained for long enough to have his brain unpolluted by years and years of intensive acting out.

I was in the exact same place you describe. Always longing after sex with my partner, not understanding why he had no desire for me (after Dday#1), and feeling regularly rejected. Now, thanks to this abstinence rule, I can focus on many other healthy things. And I know that when I have sex with him again, it will be out of a place of power, and of sexual integrity, not out of a place of need.

This feels very good and liberating. As long as I remained in this absurd sexual relationship with my partner, I felt regularly rejected (when he would refuse sex with me, or accept half-heartedly) ; used (when I accepted his fantasies, or even initiated hurtful role-playing to “get” minimal sex from him) ; contaminated (it always felt wrong, sad, and dirty). This roller coaster of sexual attraction / sexual rejection / sexual acting out together was really hurting my feelings and my self-esteem. I simply was used (and let myself be used) as a sex object, with total disregard for my feelings. Now that I am abstinent, I don’t feel all of those things. I don’t feel like an object anymore. When I was in the midst of all this, I had no idea I was used as an object, and that this explained why I felt so enormously unwell after sex each and every time. Now, I know, because I feel like a person, and it feels GOOD, so good that I won’t risk feeling like an object anymore, ever.

Thank you ladies for your responses. It helps to know that you can truly share anything on this forum.



Thanks Autumnrose for your response and sharing your own personal experiences. I think what you stated here is really what I am searching for and I unfortunately will never know the answer...what would my natural sexual person be like? My entire 35 year marriage has been clouded with addiction. I think I would have been a very playful and fun partner and have caught glimpses of this woman in the last couple of years, but I continue to struggle terribly with the reality of how many women my husband has been with. Sometimes it just seems like too hard a work and overshadows any of my own natural sexual desires.
I guess bottom line I feel angry and grievous that I have been robbed of the chance to know who I really am in this department.



I really appreciated this line OTR...I think this is more accurately what I wanted to ask, but I struggle to express myself in this regard. My own natural sexuality seems so far away and elusive. I am grateful for the changes in my husband and thankful that I can talk to him about this, but sometimes it is very lonely to feel like the only person you have to talk to is the one who has hurt you so badly. My husband always wanted to have sex with me...and unfortunately I discovered nearly three years ago, anyone else that was willing. He was not anorexic in any way shape or form, but there was zero balance. For years and years I longed to be simply affectionate, but any touch I gave him turned into something sexual, so even this became a place where I simply shut down and of course it all became a big vicious circle. I think I am still caught in this trap and still unable to trust that I am not being swept into some kind of deceptive and vulnerable place. There is nothing to indicate that he is anything but sincere about our relationship and his own recovery but oh the struggle... I will definitely read Coach Mel's thread.

I agree that abstaining for periods of time to be imperative in my situation anyway. Over the last three years we have had several planned times not only so I could gain my own bearings but also as you say that my husband could actually attempt to get in touch with himself as a healthy sexual being. It certainly helped and I encourage you in this.



I really appreciate and agree with this. My husband has reached a place where he can understand this as well and I know that he really does want our times together to be times of true intimacy, but I guess old patterns don't go away overnight. I will definitely be sharing and discussing this conversation with him.

Thanks again to all of you.

Hollyhock

You're very welcome Hollyhock. Thank you for your further thoughts. These days I was wondering about the necessity of perhaps implementing successive abstinence periods. What if I decide to interrupt my abstinence after two months for instance, but I find that I am still compromising my sexual integrity (either because of my partner, or because of my own fragility) ?

Your post answered just that.



This is such a trial and error process... I wish it could be easier and more of a linear progress, because I don't want to get hurt too much in the process of reconnecting sexually with my partner.

We are very brave women, aren't we ?

Yes, I believe we are very brave women! Contrary to the thinking of many. I am glad to see the codependent thread bumped up and the discussion that was started regarding the trauma model. These are crucial discussions for our healing, I believe, because there are still so many voices feeding us damaging information if we are not informed and armed in this battle. I have had some really great counsel but also some horrific counsel. Thank God I had enough self-confidence and intuition to fight the coaddict model. This was before I found RN, but I just refused to be lead down that garden path. Many tried to patronize me by saying that I must have known something, that there was no way my husband could have lead a double life for that many years without me having suspicions, etc. And if I defended myself then I was labelled with something else. I recall one session where my husband actually was assertive on my behalf. He simply said, "She didn't know anything; her only crime here is that she trusted me completely and I violated her trust. It is not her fault."

It would be so nice if this was an a, b, c formual process for us, but as Jon Marsh says in the lessons, it is a far more complicated process for the partner than the one in recovery. I can see that very clearly. I think that it is important to roll with the punches and not set too much in stone except as we have heard over and over...our boundaries, values and vision, but even they need to be scrutinized periodically. My husband has had to learn how to give me space and figure these things out. This does not come naturally to him to do so. Amazing to see a grown man that is respected and loved by so many in our community, etc, still be such a child in so many ways in his private world. He is becoming aware but it takes a long time. I am considerate of him and am doing the necessary work as a couple, but I am also taking time for me...let the chips fall where they may.

I find it so difficult to trust again, and become vulnerable, especially surrounding the very thing that hurt us in the first place. Our society is so sex crazed it seems. Sex, sex, sex...sometimes I want to scream that, yes, this can be a wonderful aspect of being human but there are a gazillion other things to enjoy as well. I fear for the our highly sexualized youth.

Hollyhock

You are welcome. Missed opportunity would feel like being robbed. A very long time ago now, I was in an incest survivor's class/support group and one of the topics was what we had lost in missing out on a normal childhood. There was a common feeling of being robbed of something that we could never restore. At the time, the movie The Princess Bride was out and the line towards the end where the man who had killed his father kept saying "I'll give you anything you want..." to which Indigo said "I want my father back you son of a bitch." - That's the feeling I felt with my lost childhood. Anyway, I would imagine this is a similar feeling - something that has been lost that feels irretrievable.

The activity we did (what I remember anyway as it is has been probably 25 years since I did it now) was to write out how we believed we would have been, how our life would be, had we not been abused and had a normal childhood. (Very similar to the vision exercise that are here on RN actually). In that exercise, one thing I remember writing is that I would have gone to college. It was the seed that got me working on doing just that (my first husband just kept sabotaging my efforts to return to school, ironically because he thought I would meet another man and cheat on him). The other part of the activity was once we identified how we imagined we would be today had our lives been free of abuse, was to figure out ways to honor those things and if possible nuture them and bring them into our lives, best we could.

I know this is different than recovering from child sexual abuse, but it maybe it wouldn't be bad to identify what you have lost and the vision you have for yourself as a sexual being. I have been thinking about fleshing out more about my vision for my sexual self, how I want to be sexually. There must be a way for us to heal this area and become whole in the area of our sexuality. Anyway, I hope you don't mind me sharing that little exercise.....it helped me at least identify what I thought I had lost and restore what I could.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

PS - I fully agree with what you said about the codependant movement. I find myself feeling very cautious around counselor types who want to make assumptions about me based on what my husband has done. Just today I started reading a book called: Transcending post-infidelity stress disorder and it has been very validating so far.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Dear Hollyhock -

You have been given some very good insights and advice here by other wise partners.


Autumnrose nailed it! What is normal sexuality is going to be different for each person, so writing your vision and the values that uphold that vision regarding your sexuality, are essential to finding YOU again.

What is normal sexuality look like for Hollyhock?
What does it include? Romance, honesty, intimacy?
If so, what does romance look like to you?
And what does an intimate relationship look like to you? etc. etc.

Because of the trauma and confusion you have experienced, it is normal not to "know" yet. But by writing out who YOU are will help to clear your mind, take your focus off of what your H is doing or not doing, how he feels or what he wants.


Red flags or no red flags, how do you feel about this? How does being woken up in the middle of the night to have sex fit into the vision you want for you life? Are you being honest with yourself and your H about his behavior? When you write out your vision, include how you feel about this, what value it upholds or violates and why. When YOU become sure of who you are, these situations will become easier and the answers will come to you more naturally.

I like to think of it like holding down the "reset" button for awhile. This can give some a chance to sit back, breath, think about themselves and their life and concetrate on their own healing.
Hugs -
Coach Sue

_________________
"You are the designer of your destiny. You are the author. You write the story. The pen is in your hand, and the outcome is whatever you choose." Lisa Nichols

Another thing I have a problem with I think is that I don't expect or want normal missionary position with the lights off all the time and it seems like my husband only wants that from me. I
Don't want to be treated like a porn star but I do want my husband to say what he wants and go after it with me. I want him to look at me in that light. I am not a prude and I am very open to sex and trying new things and I have td him that but he seems to keep me seperate from the fun, crazy and adventurous sex and puts me in the fifties housewife sex role. I don't mind being objectified by him if that's what you would even call it. I want him to look at me that way not some cracked out poor misguided soul that way. I am a strong woman, I do like sex as well a lot, I am open to trying and doing new things, I will be the friggin school girl or domanatrix if he wants, I am fun and mischievous and like a good time too but with someone I love and trust not with some bs on a computer screen or one night stand. I don't always want to be seen in the mommy wife light and never did. There is nothing he could say to me in regards to sex that would shock me, I may not want to do it but I think he would be surprised by what I would do and would be willing to try, he just does not seem to want to go there with me. This is weird because I have tried to do new things with him and he has always rejected me but then I find out that he is watching and jacking off to the same shit online. I am not a mind reader, I do not know what he wants unless he tells me. I tried to guess and I was right a lot of the time yet when I brought it up or tried something he wanted nothing to do with me and was online watching what I brought up. It is very very confusing to me and I just dont know where I fit in to all of this. He says he feels like he missed out being with other people and trying different things well I would have pretty much done anything and tried to but I was still shut down. He thinks he had a boring sex life well what about me? I didn't use p&m for sex like he did, that was his whole sex life by choice and I had nothing. If
I ever got anything from him it was always me fighting for it and he was never present, I was his 5 minute masturbation tool and that's it. So he thinks he missed out what about me? I have been begging and fighting and trying to improve things for 18 years. I missed out not him because I believed his lied and was always waiting for him to throw me a scrap of his sexuality. I was always waiting for him to bless me with his 5 minute get off as fast as you can because I really want to whack off to porn and this is just an inconvenience to me being with her. It is maddening that I never got to experience things or have fun or be adventurous. I was the one always sitting on the sidelines not him. He was lucky to have found me, someone who is open and trusting and sexual, he did not want that part of me, he rejected and stomped on that part of me.

Now he says he wants sex with me but never really talks about it, not about what he wants or how he sees me at all. His big thing is do you wanna make out? Wtf is that? That is not telling me anything or sharing anything with me at all. That is not embracing us or what he wants or thinks of or what I want or how our new life together sexually is going to be. I am not a computer screen that you just turn on and off, I am a person and I am your wife.

Maybe I am being dumb I don't know but this whatever it is is not working and it sends me into a panic because I have no idea where I stand or how I fit in to his life at all.

Lost

My dearest Lost –
I hear such pain in your words. I am so sorry you are struggling.

Go back to your vision and build on this sentence. What does a strong woman look like to you Lost? How does being a strong woman fit into your vision and values?

And you may not for a very long time. I understand how much you want to figure out where you "fit", but this will only come when you work on yourself and your own healing. So, considering that he is not going to give you what you need right now, what are you going to do? You have choices – continue to look for validation from your H, or shift the focus onto yourself and your own healing. I know that this can be difficult and it does take time and a shift in perspective, but you can do it. Let your visioin be your guide. Expand on it - rewrite it - internalize what it means to you.

I would also suggest going back to the partner’s workshop and re-read your lessons, or even begin the lessons again, taking the time to really internalize what is being taught on a deeper level.

This is a process Lost. There is no quick fix for the pain you are feeling. Take a deep breath and begin to see that you are a unique woman and your life and how you feel does not depend on what your H is doing, or what he is saying or not saying. Your life depends on you.

This pain and confusion you are feeling can and will subside when you shift your focus.
Take time to do something just for you today –

Holding you in my heart –
Coach Sue

_________________
"You are the designer of your destiny. You are the author. You write the story. The pen is in your hand, and the outcome is whatever you choose." Lisa Nichols

This is quite a lot that you are carrying, Lost. You are still “new” (relatively speaking) and so your reaction is completely understandable. I want to point out one thing, which is where I think you need to focus in order to heal this part of yourself--your husband's addiction has nothing to do with you. It can be difficult to process this, and even more difficult to know it (as in, know it in the core of your being) but it is the none the less the truth. That you are willing to do almost anything to attract his sexual attention and he isn’t receptive only highlights just how compartmentalized his addiction is and means nothing about you (or your attractiveness, your worthiness, your sexuality, etc.). And, were he receptive, this still wouldn’t mean anything about you--because either way it is all about him. The reason that you have no idea where you stand is because you have given him power over that --You are looking to him to tell you, instead of asking yourself. Please know that there is no judgement in my statements. We have all been there, and we can all easily go there at any moment --any moment being the moment we lose focus on what we have learned to regain power over our own lives, and begin to look once again to another for our meaning, purpose and fulfillment. Be patient with yourself. As Coach Sue suggested, go back to your lessons and perhaps review them, and see where you can deepen and expand your healing through the work you have done. Healing, as any other learning experience in life, is a process, not a destination.

Be well.

_________________
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. (Epictetus)

Hollyhock, good for you for taking a risk with the community. As you have learned, this is a safe and welcoming environment and what you get out of it (as with the lessons, as with anything else in life) is relative to what you put in. You went for it and with that you have also given something in kind.

Be well.

_________________
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. (Epictetus)

Thank you Autumnrose. I always appreciate your responses. Your exercise is quite timely actually as my trauma counselor and I have been working through my many losses and my continuing grieving process. (Sometimes I think I am permanently stuck waffling between sadness and anger.) I don't want to get stuck analyzing my life over and over again, but after our last session I had a bit of an epiphany and decided that I would develop a treatment plan for myself as a child, and as a woman now. (I have done these professsionally for years and have been thinking about what I would have thought I needed as a little girl, and what I would identify for myself right now if I could sit in an objective, assessment position.)

Thank you Mel. I don't risk very much lately. I typically am a very trusting person not afraid to speak out or step outside the box, but I am a little gun-shy these days. It felt good to take a step of faith.

Hollyhock[quote="CoachSue"]What is normal sexuality look like for Hollyhock?
What does it include? Romance, honesty, intimacy?
If so, what does romance look like to you?
And what does an intimate relationship look like to you? etc. etc.[/quote

These are good questions and something that would be good to have included in the lessons. God bless Jon Marsh. My word I don't know where I would be without the wisdom he has shared with all of us, but this aspect of our lives as partners has been damaged in differing ways for all of us and is something that possibly should be delved into further. Any thoughts?

Thank you to all of you for encouraging me to explore this part of my life in a deeper way. Maybe I am finally realizing that I do have the grace of catching my breath and I need to allow myself the opportunity. I am going to revisit my boundaries, values and vision and do some work to see where I think my sexuality fits. In 35 years, my husband has never given me a chance to breathe; I never had a chance to contemplate what I wanted at all. I simply spent most of my time dancing around his incessant drive.

Hollyhock