Recovery Nation

Thank you for "bumping this topic back up." I needed to read some other's feelings/experiences. I realized early on that I cannot be the person I was before D-day--not ever again. And that was/is hard. I had to accept that the relationship was never really as I had believed. Trust is very hard to rebuild, I think/feel. In fact, I'm not sure it ever really can be. At least not the child-like, fall-backwards-onto-a-soft-bed kind of trust I had in this relationship before. But, I'm certainly much wiser now, tho I don't always like having to watch my boundaries & think about intentions, & keeping my values in the forefront & protect my reality.
I used to facilitate groups about boundaries & safety, etc. And I've felt like: "How could this happen to me?" How could I not have seen this? But, I finished the Partner's lessons, tho I still go back to some periodically since I'm in a different place, and my H has finally committed to doing the addict's lessons here on RN. But, who knows where we'll end up? I know neither of us will be the same person then & where that leaves this 30+ yr. relationship.... remains to be seen.
I appreciate the support of RN. It helps me stay "real."

Hi everyone,

I feel sad reading all these posts and sad that we ever have need for RN ... glad its here though because we all do - even I do now after having left my SA man. I still love him in many ways but my line in the sand is drawn, my decision made, my boundaries set in stone!

What strikes me in all the posts I am reading is that there is complete confusion in our relationships, complete turmoil. I find it hard to know why we work so hard to fix it all ... and I even have the experience of having done this myself many, many times. It is true we hold onto the hope that he will see what he's doing to 'us' and change his ways. I think that the 'core' thing about him being pure at birth is a valuble point. However, it also implies that there would have been choice in use of porn, etc. as a coping mechanism. It also therefore implies that the choice can be made to stop. However, the body becomes overwhelmed by the desire and craving for the chemical fix it gets from orgasm triggered by porn and I believe PA's cannot always control that at times of stress. I would ask the question how many times your man goes to porn when things are difficult between you both?

The use of porn and the impact on us as partners is more confusing than ever. We love our man for who he is and hate him for his use of porn.

I don't really know what message is in my post apart from porn addiction is confusing and because it is confusing, we flounder not knowing what to do. It is also like an elastic band dependant on porn usage that is ongoing in our relationship. We want it to go away and when it doesn't, we question and question and ... question. Then we circle the cycle of discovery, pain, confrontation, more pain and the start of change which then results in disappointment and discovery again ... unless our partner has decided to engage in some professional help like here on RN. But then it takes years and more years.

Porn is such a thief of time and life. Its implications and effects on those using it are complex and deeply entrenched ... can't even be seen by the addicted (there, I used it!).

Oh I don't know. I have been in it all for many years and am just glad to be away from it now. I really admire those of you who are still fighting the porn addiction that's infiltrating your lives. I wish you well.

For me now, my problem is the damage I am left with from my experiences. I am working on them though.

A confused Authona ...

PS I think that using 'addicted' is right too because the man is there behind it. We all see it through their eyes even though they can't express themselves to us and even when we can't accept them.

Bumping this up again. When any of us accept the challenge of heaing, we have to do it for ourselves, but it takes a long time for us to understand what those words "doing it for ourselves" actually means. We still have a life partner in the mix. Who is this person? Does this person know who he is? Lots of questions for those who choose to stay or choose to wait and see.

Nellie James

Thanks for bumping it up. I found it interesting.
As far as the word usage, I myself do not struggle with that sort of mental attachment to the wording. But I know a great many people do and I can see where an addicted person may as well. I too have an autistic son. He is now 19 years old. I can literally say I have never thought of him the way of "an autistic person" He has always been a treasure who had the unfortunate burden of being born with this affliction. He literally wakes up each and every morning singing, gets in the shower (which is next to my bedroom) SINGING (at 5:30 am each day), he is pure sunshine most of the time. On the other hand there are times when his disability is so very apparent.
Maybe that is a reason I could separate the man from the addiction. I have always seen him more like a man who does addictive things. Is this also an improper attitude?
Just to add to this, I suppose I am lucky so far even though it hasn't quite been a year. I see times when it seems addiction is far away from my Husband and out comes a kind hearted, generous, loving, gentle, remorseful (deeply remorseful) man. But then he slips back into Mr Avoidance, withdrawn, shallow who thinks the F word is supposed to come in between every other word. So frustrating because that only serves to fuel my need not to trust him and my pain as it tells me I probably am still not even close to being safe.
DL

I have re-read this thread many times as this is a topic I struggle with. I do see a real person with the many of the same needs and desires that I have in the core of my partner but I am afraid that is one of thoughts that has kept me in a state of indecision.But I find myself doing the "if only...." and feel I am coming closer to defining what *I* want and need in my life (i.e. - values and boundaries)

It is so hard to know the wonderful things I will also be giving up in order to be free of the conflict that is often the result of my attempt to maintain my personal integrity but those wonderful moments fade so quickly into a memory of the emotional price I have paid. So I think I resist seeing him as something other than what he currently is.

I have also begin to see how he defines himself by things that I do not see as a part of him. For example: I was critical of the news program he listens to (because I feel they report very little on things we might have an opportunity to affect) and he became defensive in a way that made it clear that he felt I was criticizing him. So he identifies himself with this news program, or any other number of things like that and it makes it hard for me to see *him*.

I don't know if I am making much sense here - I feel like I am reaching for something which is still a little beyond my understanding.

That's very interesting Seethesky. I also tend to notice that my partner identifies with the things he likes (I guess most of us do it a little, by the way) but to an extent that can sometimes be disturbing, as though his sense of self was attached to those things he likes. I guess that's a sign of immaturity.

Devotedlover : like you, I don't have a hard time separating the man from the addiction when he is not in his withdrawn, distant, almost dissociative state. When he is totally "possessed" I have to admit I don't see the man anymore and I feel intense discomfort and a fearful feeling (I'm "scared" of these dark dark places he has dragged us into).

When I feel like that, I try to remind myself of this proverb (I think it is Nellie who shared it earlier) :

Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you. ~Maori Proverb

seethe sky wrote:
This sounds like a conflict in itself. What wonderful things would you be giving up? Maybe re-visiting your vision would help here.
Ahh. The emotional price is huge for us all. When we put it on the balance scale, it quickly throws things out of balance. This is a great insight into yourself - a light bulb moment to build on.

overtherainbow wrote:
Yes, I think we all identify with the things we like. When we use it to escape or numb our feelings or it becomes a "have to do,"we have a problem. My son the musician immerses himself in music when he is down to the point of avoiding everything else. Not good. My youngest son, like his dad, likes coming up with new ideas for fixing things - very inventive - but doesn't always finish his projects. I can get lost in making jewelry, tending my flowers, and not get my housework done. It's who I am. It's about finding the balance.

My H's currency is working, fixing things around the house, the car, and now our "canned ham trailer." When he was acting out, he used this so he didn't have to think about his choices - wouldn't have to face himself. It was an escape - a place to hide out - but it was also about how he was raised where work was valued above feelings. Our couples counselor (before RN) recognized this and outlawed his workaholic pattern from his life for a period of time. Instead she made him journal for hours a day about his feelings: sad, mad, glad, etc. She told him no more "have to do" lists - he could choose to do something without feeling he had to do it. It was very hard for him to give up this part of his life. Now he still putters and is very good at it. He would rather figure out his own solution than Google for the answer. It's who he is. We are both aware of where it can take him, and that awareness is key to his taking steps to manage himself.

We are both artists. His process is totally different than mine. He's very cerebral. I'm very organic. Yet, we love each other's work and gravitate to similar kinds of art which is interesting because art is so subjective. We are different from one another and that's not only OK, it's good and makes for a far more interesting relationship.

I can hear myself rambling. Sorry. My point is that we do identify with activities that we enjoy - we all do it. Sometimes it comes from our authentic self and sometimes it doesn't. When it negatively impacts our relationship....well.....part of our healing journey is to figure that out for ourselves through our values. Hope some of this helps.

Nellie James

Oh yes, we certainly do "identify" with the things we do that either reflect us or help create us as a person but to what degree? When I was teaching I remember how students would say something like, "I am not a good speller" and I might respond with something like, "you are learning how to spell" or something else that would help define them as something more than a grade on a spelling test.

But having said that I was quite upset when my partner threatened to burn my paintings that I had given to him so I too am a living example of the process. But there was something so very personal about threatening to destroy something I had created and given to him as a gift.

I said:
It is so hard to know the wonderful things I will also be giving up in order to be free of the conflict that is often the result of my attempt to maintain my personal integrity

Nellie said:
This sounds like a conflict in itself. What wonderful things would you be giving up? Maybe re-visiting your vision would help here.


I am working on it, Nellie (and I loved the reference to the "canned ham" trailer - I could see exactly what you were talking about!)

Very immature behavior on lhis part. How long ago was this? I would have reacted, too. Early on after DDay during a major confrontation, when I asked my H if he loved me, he replied, "You are very hard to love." I was so shocked and hurt. A few days later, I had a private session with our counselor, and she told me that he said that to hurt me. Well, it did the trick. He was a very angry man for many reasons, but he projected it all onto me because I was there. fEventually I made peace with that but it took a lot of work for me to let that go.

Sadly, many of the partners here have experienced very hurtful behavior - we got caught in the line of fire just because we were there. Not an excuse. Just an explaination.

I am sorry you have experienced this kind of pain, too.

Nellie

^^^This almost burning occurred last November. I told him that I would take them back if he did not want them anymore and he then said that I would have to pay full gallery rates or he would burn them. I do believe this was intended to hurt me. I was ready to let them go but he ended up giving them back.

I wanted to add something here that Nellie's post reminded me of: Just last week I went into the room where he was working (he was visiting) and I told him I loved him. A few days later he acted out my words using an unpleasant voice and declared that I only said those words in order to "use" him. If he asked me "do you love me" now, as he has done many times before, I am not sure I even want to answer. I feel the need to keep my feelings to myself lest they be used as a weapon aimed at me at a later date.

But to try to bring this back to the topic: How can one take these kind of actions and somehow "separate" them from the man?

seethesky, that sounds down right abusive. I am sorry that happened to you.

Something I have been thinking about in relation to 'separating the man from the addiction' was recent comments from people in recovery about the idea there is no demon inside of them or something like that. So if we separate the man from the addiction but really there are not two things to separate, where does that leave us? I find it easier to sort it out in my mind when he is acting straight from his addict-brain vs. his authentic self. But if there is no addict-brain really what good is that doing? Anyway, the two ideas seem to contradict each other or so it seems to me. I honestly am comfortable with the idea of separating the man from the addiction and maybe this is different than blaming an addiction for choices one makes.... I dunno. Just something I noticed and wondered about.

_________________

"What day is it,?" asked Pooh.
"It's today," squeaked Piglet.
"My favorite day," said Pooh.

Perhaps, there is a way that you can communicate this to him in a feeling statement. Regardless, don't engage and play the game if he tries to draw you in. That is not healthy for either of you. It seems he is projecting his anger onto you which doesn't necessarily mean he is angry at you. There is a difference.

Keep working your lessons and going forward with your own healing. Sometimes we have to come back to a lesson when we can't really make peace with it at the time - such as this lesson about separating the man from the addiction. I have re-visited many lessons more than once. We each have our process.

Hope this helps.
Nellie

Perhaps I am having difficulty separating the man from the behaviors because he seems to identify so strongly with the things he does. I have heard a lot of talk of how I am not "accepting" him or how I am "shaming" him. I try to tell him that it is the behaviors that I will not accept and that the "shame" he feels is his own and could be used to motivate himself, but he does not seem to hear me. I use the "I feel ____when you" statements and it still often brings on his defensiveness and/or anger - usually in the form of an argument over the "when you" (he will argue that he did not do what I am describing or he will bring up the "shaming" or "acceptance" defense - telling me what a "bad" person I am for doing these things......)

At other times I have heard the accusation that my love for him is "conditional". Part of me wants to say, "yup, ya got that right, if you keep treating me like something you'd wipe off your shoe I will eventually stop loving you because I deserve to be loved and I desire peace in my life" and part of me wants to say, "if my love was purely conditional I would have left you in the desert when you ran off with a broken bottle because I deserve to be loved and I desire peace in my life".

So, is conditional/unconditional love what we are talking about here? What is "unconditional" love and does it really exist? Is the addicted person always going to feel as though a partner's love is "conditional" and be discouraged in recovery by that?

I am beginning to think that separating the man from the addiction is a step in *my* healing - to learn to forgive myself. If he is going to heal he has to make that separation for himself.

That's when you walk away.
The point of a feeling statement is so you express how you feel relative to a behavior that bothers you. His reacting emotionally or not is up to him. Your reacting or not reacting emotionally to him is up to you. Engaging in an emotional exchange takes you backward, not forward. At that point, I suggest you walk away and table any discussion for a time when ground rules are established.
The label doesn't matter here. He will think whatever he's going to think - it differs from person to person. For me this lesson was about my recognizing that his addiction was not about me and it was not about who this man was or had the potential to be at his core. This lesson was the beginning of my awareness of his using an unhealthy coping mechanisms that worked for him. He used unhealthy coping mechanisms also because he didn't have healthy ways that worked for him. That's it in a nutshell.

We each process the material in the lessons in our own way. There is no black and white thinking on this particular topic, for me - but that's me. Sometimes we get hung up on needing an absolute - and it becomes an obstable of sorts that keeps us from going forward. I have been where you are - not on this lesson but on others. I remember a very wise coach giving me sort of a verbal kick in the rear - shocked me a bit, but it was what I needed to get on with my own healing.

Hope this helps.

Nellie

nellie said:


And this is why it becomes hopeless. He will agree to "ground rules" and then proceed to "break" them. How many times should I remind him of his agreements? How much should I allow to be "swept under the rug"? I know these are questions I have to answer for myself but the "walk away" may have to be the big "walk away" and it hurts.

me:
So, is conditional/unconditional love what we are talking about here? What is "unconditional" love and does it really exist? Is the addicted person always going to feel as though a partner's love is "conditional" and be discouraged in recovery by that?

nellie:
The label doesn't matter here. For me this lesson was about my recognizing that his addiction was not about me and it was not about who this man was or had the potential to be. We each process this in our own way. There is no black and white thinking here for me - but that's me.


I don't think I am trying to "label" as much as sort out the conflict I have. I don't accept his behavior and he uses it as a reason to act out. I do "accept" (tolerate) his behavior and he acts out. So yes - this is about leaving him out of my own healing process, isn't it. I am trying to look at my values in this but I still end up back at the place where I started - if I separate the man from the addiction I want to stay with him. But that is only theory. *He* has to separate *himself* from his addiction in order for this to be real.

Thank you for listening to my rambling - I know I have wandered off topic here.